SL CoC Incubator

[13:00]  Chili Carson: Hi Zeus

[13:00]  Zeus Zetkin: Hello 🙂

[13:00]  Zeus Zetkin: First in?

[13:00]  Rudy Ruml: Hi cutie.

[13:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello!

[13:00]  Rudy Ruml: Hi Zeus.

[13:00]  Thor Eldrich is Online

[13:00]  Chili Carson: H Gwyn

[13:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My apologies, I’m fighting lag here… and losing the battle…. hehe

[13:01]  Rudy Ruml: Good afternoon, Chile.

[13:01]  Chili Carson: Hi Rudy, how are you?

[13:01]  Zeus Zetkin: Hi Rudy, Gwyn, Hunter 🙂

[13:01]  Chili Carson: Hi Hutner

[13:01]  Chili Carson: *Hunter

[13:02]  Hunter Glass: Hello..:-)

[13:02]  Thor Eldrich: /ao off

[13:02]  Thor Eldrich: Hello everyone

[13:02]  Chili Carson: Hi Thor!

[13:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn welcomes all

[13:02]  Chili Carson: Hi Everyone. Great to have such a big group today

[13:03]  Zeus Zetkin: Hello all 🙂

[13:03]  Rudy Ruml: Nice seeing you all.

[13:03]  Chili Carson: A little update on the logo situation

[13:03]  Chili Carson: But, first, do I have permission to post the transcript?

[13:03]  Thor Eldrich: yes for me

[13:03]  Zeus Zetkin: yep

[13:04]  Rudy Ruml: Yes, for me.

[13:04]  Hunter Glass: yes

[13:04]  Chili Carson: Logo = zero results right now

[13:04]  Chili Carson: Lou has been swamped

[13:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww

[13:04]  Chili Carson: And, the logos the graphic artist did were not good

[13:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn also gives permission to be recorded

[13:05]  Hunter Glass: Have you found a solution there yet for

[13:05]  Zeus Zetkin: Can someone tell me how to access the blog later?

[13:12]  Chili Carson: So, last week we were hot and heavy on how involved the chamber should be in alternative dispute resolution…anyone want to start?

[13:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (IM me Zeus 🙂 )

[13:13]  Hunter Glass: Do chambers normally get involved with such disputes?

[13:13]  Hunter Glass: the two that I’ve been in didn’t to my knowledge

[13:13]  Thor Eldrich: usually it’s left for a Better Business Bureau to tackle, but there isn’t one to the best of my knowledge here

[13:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some don’t, some do…

[13:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Thor

[13:14]  Hunter Glass: I see

[13:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Things seem to be moving towards a two-in-one group here: a BBB & a CoC 🙂

[13:14]  Ashcroft Burnham: Well, on ADR…

[13:14]  Ashcroft Burnham: ADR is only useful when it’s an alternative *to* something.

[13:14]  Ashcroft Burnham: And where that something is itself capable of binding resolution of disputes.

[13:14]  Chili Carson: good point, Ash…I guess it’s just dispute resolution here

[13:14]  Ashcroft Burnham: It’s not much use when it’s an alternative to nothing at all.

[13:15]  Rudy Ruml: It’s an alternative to having to suffer a sanction without the ability to appeal.

[13:15]  Ashcroft Burnham: Well, the problem is, though, ADR only works in real life because the parties know that they can go to court if they don’t reach an agreement.

[13:15]  Ashcroft Burnham: ADR can only work when backed by a binding method of dispute resolution.

[13:15]  Rudy Ruml: If sanctions of some sort, including rejecting membership, are to be handed out, there has to be an appeal process.

[13:15]  Zeus Zetkin: I was doing some reading on it. I think we what we are planning to do is, closer to what’s known as Online Dispute Resolution (ODR).

[13:15]  Rudy Ruml: And that can be handled by some ADR process.

[13:15]  Ashcroft Burnham: In SL, there is none. Well, apart from the one that we’re setting up in the CDS.

[13:16]  Chili Carson: interesting Zeus….what is that?

[13:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: CDS = the government’s name of the sim known as Neufreistadt, Chili (since it has now two sims)

[13:16]  Zeus Zetkin: well, my knowledge of it is fairly limited as I was reading up on it on Wikipedia.

[13:16]  Hunter Glass: ODR sounds really interesting

[13:17]  Ashcroft Burnham: It sounds slightly like a disease 😉

[13:17]  Chili Carson: haha

[13:17]  Hunter Glass: lol

[13:17]  Zeus Zetkin: But , it seems to be term used for settling disputes in a cyber environment.

[13:17]  Hunter Glass: yes, inherently complex

[13:17]  Zeus Zetkin: Lol @ Ash 🙂

[13:17]  Rudy Ruml: Who handles the disputes. A group, or a person?

[13:18]  Zeus Zetkin: It seems to be any chosen person.

[13:18]  Zeus Zetkin: But I think it could easily be a body as well.

[13:19]  Zeus Zetkin: As I said my knowledge is rather sketchy on this. ( Mostly gathered through some hurried reading )

[13:19]  Hunter Glass: did it say if there were any case studies

[13:19]  Thor Eldrich: odr.info is a reference site on there

[13:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm

[13:19]  Thor Eldrich: hehe….I think we’re all skimming 🙂

[13:19]  Zeus Zetkin: But , it seems to be mechanism involved for arbitration processes for domain name conflict etc.

[13:19]  Rudy Ruml: Whatever we do, I think the simpler the better.

[13:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed

[13:19]  Rudy Ruml: Right, Ash?

[13:20]  Rudy Ruml: So initially, I’m for a one person appeal system, with the right of a further appeal to the full board.

[13:20]  Chili Carson: Hey, Lou!

[13:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: The simpler in practice, yes. But, since the thing dispute resolution is inherently and inescapably vastly complex, a system, to work and be predictable, has to anticipate and tame that complexity, rather than ignore it.

[13:20]  Lou Tones: Greetings

[13:20]  Thor Eldrich: whatever methods are employed the challenge will be in keeping objective and working for the process and not any given result

[13:21]  Chili Carson: Lou, do we have your permission to post the transcript?

[13:21]  Lou Tones: yes

[13:21]  Rudy Ruml: Ash, this is all new. Better we learn from experience and complicate the process as the necessity arises.

[13:21]  Chili Carson: Lou — we are discussing online dispute resolution

[13:21]  Rudy Ruml: Let’s treat this as an evolutionary thing.

[13:21]  Ashcroft Burnham: Chili, presumably the sanction with which you would back the ADR process (if people refused to abide by the negotiated outcome) would be expulsion from the CoC?

[13:21]  Chili Carson: yes, that is it

[13:21]  Lou Tones: thanks

[13:22]  Ashcroft Burnham: Rudy: the process is far more complicated in practice if it does not anticipate and deal with the complexity with which it will have to deal in advance than if it does.

[13:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh* @ Ash

[13:22]  Ashcroft Burnham: LOL! :-p

[13:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You’re becoming extremely predictable, Ash…

[13:23]  Rudy Ruml: We have a difference on that. As I said, I go for simplicity in the beginning Rudy Ruml: We have a difference on that. As I said, I go for simplicity in the beginning.

[13:23]  Ashcroft Burnham: Well, that’s a good thing, isn’t it, if I’m going to be a judge? 😉

[13:23]  Hunter Glass: Well, I think if we do go with simplicity we won’t be able to handle complexity

[13:23]  Rudy Ruml: You are assuming knowledge we don’t have. This is all new.

[13:23]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, Rudy, what kind of knowledge?

[13:23]  Rudy Ruml: Why should that be Huner?

[13:23]  Rudy Ruml: sorry, Hunter.

[13:24]  Hunter Glass: n worries, my thinking is that being well prepared for complexities is best that being not prepared

[13:24]  Rudy Ruml: Knowledge as to what kind if disputes will arise, with what unhappiness behind them, and how the process will function in SL as compared to RW.

[13:24]  Ashcroft Burnham: Also, Chili, what *kind* of ADR had you in mind? Arbitration or mediation? Or something else again?

[13:25]  Ashcroft Burnham: We do know in the abstract what sort of disputes will arise. We have a good idea of how SL works, so we can predict quite accurately how those will interact.

[13:26]  Hunter Glass: but I do agree that the system will develop over time

[13:26]  Zeus Zetkin: I think Ash, raises a valid point… mediation or arbitration?

[13:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d vote on mediation for starters…

[13:27]  Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, in that case, it definitely needs to be a specific alternative to a more formal method…

[13:27]  Thor Eldrich: In mediation we’d act more as a catalyst or facilitator, correct?

[13:27]  Thor Eldrich: nothing more

[13:27]  Ashcroft Burnham: …mediation, unlike arbitration, is capable of coming to no conclusion at all.

[13:27]  Rudy Ruml: I agree. Arbitration means taking a dominant position between two parties. I prefer the more neutral mediation.

[13:27]  Thor Eldrich: Yes, definitely

[13:28]  Thor Eldrich: taking sides in a dispute would have bad consequences

[13:28]  Zeus Zetkin: I think till we have a better enforcement mechanism, except for annulling their memberships. Mediation is the only alternative.

[13:28]  Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, but, even in mediation, how would you know whose membership to revoke if neither side can agree?

[13:29]  Chili Carson: Actually, Ash, I am really wary of this…as I said last week, I am concerned we could get so tangled up in this, that the Chamber will not get off the ground at all….

[13:29]  Rudy Ruml: Sometimes it will be obvious. A few times there will be gray areas in which we will have to learn.

[13:29]  Ashcroft Burnham: Well, Chili, there is an alternative where you can be involved in ADR without it either being pointless or the CoC having to take sides…

[13:30]  Rudy Ruml: In any case, I don’t see how we can decide beforehand what positions to take until we hear the appeal.

[13:30]  Zeus Zetkin: lol.. Ash. I saw this coming….;)

[13:30]  Ashcroft Burnham: Chili: you could in effect use our courts 🙂

[13:30]  Zeus Zetkin: There you go..:)

[13:30]  Chili Carson: and there ya go

[13:31]  Zeus Zetkin: Okay, here’s a suggestion which is a hybrid of the two positions.

[13:31]  Ashcroft Burnham: You could set things up so that members of the CoC agree to abide by our law, and, if any member refuses to honour a judgment against her or him, membership will be revoked.

[13:31]  Hunter Glass: Well, I think that getting involved in arbitration or mediation could lead to tensions that the openness of a chamber shouldn’t have

[13:31]  Rudy Ruml: Courts as the third level appeal. first to the ADR system, second to the Board, and then if still unhappy the courts. Finally to Ash.

[13:31]  Thor Eldrich: that ties CoC to a civic authority, though

[13:31]  Lou Tones: I would suggest separation of conflict resolution from SL CoC services

[13:31]  Ashcroft Burnham: The CoC could then offer mediation services (without taking sides) to disputants based on our law (mediation, after all, can only work if based on a pre-existing set of norms).

[13:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂

[13:32]  Zeus Zetkin: I agree with Rudy on this.

[13:32]  Ashcroft Burnham: Rudy – that is not a bad idea at all, although, “to the courts” will be the same as “to me” until we have more than one judge 😉

[13:32]  Chili Carson: Lou — could you give us more on your viewpoint?

[13:32]  Ashcroft Burnham: *And* the CoC could offer commercial mediation services (for a fee, of course) to non-members of the CoC, but members of the CDS.

[13:32]  Rudy Ruml: Yes, I know Ash. ):

[13:32]  Hunter Glass: I vote for no legal services within COC

[13:32]  Lou Tones: IN the Better Business Bureau handles the complaint and arbitration issues not the CoC..

[13:33]  Thor Eldrich: Yes, this is getting into strange territory here. Although well intentioned, there are consequences to being a judge and advocate at the same time, folks

[13:33]  Hunter Glass: I think that establishing a place where people can interact and exchange ideas and contact info is the best way to start

[13:34]  Ashcroft Burnham: Well, indeed. That’s why it’s probably better for the CoC to do mediation in business-to-business disputes only 🙂

[13:34]  Thor Eldrich: Better to help give SL business the tools to mange these issues themselves, no?

[13:34]  Lou Tones: I think there are other issues that the CoC should deal with first

[13:34]  Chili Carson: I make a motion that we take a formal vote on whether the chamber is going to be connected with dispute resolution.

[13:34]  Rudy Ruml: Seconded.

[13:34]  Hunter Glass: I agree, lets vote

[13:34]  Chili Carson: OK, who is in FAVOR of having the chamber connected with dispute resolution?

[13:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m fine with that motion 🙂

[13:34]  Ashcroft Burnham: (Who’s eligible to vote?)

[13:35]  Rudy Ruml: First, I would like to hear Chili’s position.

[13:35]  Chili Carson: everyone here

[13:35]  Chili Carson: My position is we should stay away from it

[13:35]  Rudy Ruml: Chili?

[13:35]  Chili Carson: yes, rudy?

[13:35]  Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, well, no competition for us, then 😉

[13:36]  Rudy Ruml: Question. If we do Chili, then what recourse do businesses have that we sanction.

[13:36]  Chili Carson: All those OPPOSED?

[13:36]  Zeus Zetkin: Dispute Resolution – No. Dispute Resolution Counseling – Yes

[13:36]  Rudy Ruml: Me.

[13:36]  Hunter Glass: I’m opposed

[13:36]  Chili Carson: Me

[13:36]  Thor Eldrich: No for me. Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh wait. I’m for dispute resolution, just not “now”, but at a later stage,

[13:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: focusing on what looks far more important to me right now: getting this off 🙂

[13:36]  Ashcroft Burnham: Maybe the CoC could procure outside bodies to do its ADR?

[13:37]  Thor Eldrich: Taking the lead on something like this requires a level of trust that we just don’t have yet.

[13:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Ash. That comes to my mind as well.

[13:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Thor. Thus, I’m *for* having it, just not *now* 🙂

[13:37]  Rudy Ruml: The votes is on your motion, which opposes ADR. But this means that in opposition to your motion, one can be for ADR.

[13:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But in, say, 6 months…

[13:37]  Ashcroft Burnham: Or just have a list of possible means of dispute resolution, including joining the CDS, or using rock/paper/scissors (with Pelanor as arbiter of the process)?

[13:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Ash!

[13:37]  Chili Carson: good one, Ash

[13:38]  Zeus Zetkin: The Question that arises is what is the locus standi of an outside body for ADR in the CoC. And will that be defined earlier and what if it proves a deterrent to membership?

[13:38]  Chili Carson: Anyone have any objection to Ash” suggestion?

[13:38]  Ashcroft Burnham: And then let the CoC be an advocate for business interests, and an educator of businesspeople (in things including, but not limited to, finding means of resolving disputes).

[13:38]  Thor Eldrich: For starters, that sounds great Ash

[13:38]  Rudy Ruml: Be it noted by all, that I agree with Ash.

[13:38]  Zeus Zetkin: I agree with ASh.

[13:38]  Chili Carson: Yes, Ash. Good suggestions

[13:39]  Ashcroft Burnham: Of course, there’s still the question of whether the CoC should revoke membership in the case of unethical conduct by a member.

[13:39]  Ashcroft Burnham: LOL! Maybe a first, Rudy? 😉

[13:39]  Thor Eldrich: That is still possible, I imagine, on two fronts…

[13:39]  Rudy Ruml: ):

[13:39]  Rudy Ruml: Chili, where do we stand now?

[13:39]  Ashcroft Burnham: (Although, actually, I think that I largely agree with you about the democratic peace theory… so second time, maybe? 😉 )

[13:40]  Chili Carson: Basically, dispute resolution has now been put on the back burner

[13:40]  Zeus Zetkin: Can I suggest a last solution?

[13:40]  Chili Carson: sure, Zeus

[13:40]  Rudy Ruml: Back burner meaning after the CoC begins to function.

[13:40]  Rudy Ruml: ?

[13:41]  Thor Eldrich: To be clear, I’ve always held this different than offering something such as a “seal of approval” or even doing direct business with a member

[13:41]  Chili Carson: Yes

[13:41]  Zeus Zetkin: Let the Question of revocation of membership be decided by a committee of members specially appointed inside the CoC.

[13:41]  Rudy Ruml: OK, I think we can drop the matter until we actually get an appeal to one of the COC decisions.

[13:42]  Zeus Zetkin: For the actual resolution of the dispute or w/e mediation is required , we can provide informal counseling or point the way to the courts like CDS.

[13:42]  Rudy Ruml: We will have more intelligence on which to respond then.

[13:42]  Thor Eldrich: FYI, I’m getting reports of a grid attack much like the recent ones. If you’re offered inventory might be best to deny it

[13:42]  Zeus Zetkin: thanks Thor 🙂

[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Thor. I got the same info myself.

[13:43]  Hunter Glass: yes, thanks a bunch thor

[13:43]  Thor Eldrich: Hehe…sorry, I’m in IM hell all the sudden. 🙂

[13:43]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm.., map not working.

[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So yes, there seems to be another grid attack 😛

[13:43]  Ashcroft Burnham: Do people really have nothing better to do with their time?

[13:43]  Thor Eldrich: On the whole I’d say…yes.

[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No 🙁

[13:43]  Thor Eldrich: hahaha

[13:44]  Zeus Zetkin: I am sure they have the same opinion of us 🙂

[13:44]  Zeus Zetkin: lol

[13:44]  Hunter Glass: I would say yes

[13:44]  Ashcroft Burnham: Pff. They should be made to come to Colonia Nova and haul dirt :-p

[13:44]  Rudy Ruml: No, to my seminar Ash.

[13:44]  Hunter Glass: lol

[13:44]  Ashcroft Burnham: LOL! Ahh, yes, rehabilitation 😉

[13:44]  Thor Eldrich: I’ve been working on something to post to the wiki that might assist us in dealing with good conduct

[13:44]  Ashcroft Burnham: And if they misbehave, set Fang on them 😉

[13:45]  Rudy Ruml: hahaha

[13:45]  Thor Eldrich: even though as a CoC my Chamber doesn’t get involved in conflict resolution…

[13:45]  Thor Eldrich: it does feel free to pick and choose whom it does business with Thor Eldrich: as an organization we can still reinforce good business conduct

[13:46]  Thor Eldrich: just by our own actions

[13:46]  Lou Tones: I would suggest that conflict resolution, mediation suggest this is best practice mode for a CoC

[13:46]  Rudy Ruml: Thor. What do you do if a business complains that unfairly discriminate against the? Say a black business.

[13:47]  Rudy Ruml: It’s the gird that is wrecking my typing.

[13:47]  Thor Eldrich: We would direct them to our business directory, actually. Direct them to a member attorney. 🙂 Thor Eldrich: We would direct them to our business directory, actually. Direct them to a member attorney. 🙂

[13:48]  Rudy Ruml: Member attorney. Then this is a form of ADR?

[13:48]  Thor Eldrich: if you mean facilitation of resolution, yes, I suppose so.

[13:48]  Thor Eldrich: I can’t wait to bring that into the office tomorrow! 🙂

[13:48]  Rudy Ruml: Member attorney. Then this is a form of ADR?

[13:48]  Thor Eldrich: if you mean facilitation of resolution, yes, I suppose so.

[13:49]  Thor Eldrich: In that manor all are assisted…

[13:50]  Ashcroft Burnham: Thor… you raise an interesting point. Member attorneys.

[13:50]  Thor Eldrich: the jilted members has an avenue to receive justice, another member gets a referral, and our Chamber’s reputation grows.

[13:50]  Zeus Zetkin: Yes, some form of legal guidance as I said or rather directions to find legal guidance and maybe arbitration.

[13:50]  Ashcroft Burnham: Presumably, we want to encourage commercial lawyers to become members of the CoC?

[13:51]  Ashcroft Burnham: I’m all for having more lawyers in world 🙂

[13:51]  Thor Eldrich: You know, I thought I’ve seen all forms of institutions in SL so far…..banks, universities, etc.

[13:51]  Thor Eldrich: Hehehe

[13:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂

[13:52]  Ashcroft Burnham: I’m even considering setting up, once our legal system has been going for a while, an in-world legal qualification based on our legal system.

[13:52]  Thor Eldrich: So is CDS…..is that just another name for the government, or is it a separate entity altogether working in conjunction with the government?

[13:52]  Ashcroft Burnham: It is the name of the nation 🙂

[13:52]  Ashcroft Burnham: Neufreistadt is the name of a region.

[13:52]  Thor Eldrich: oh oh….my apologies.

[13:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: What Ash said.

[13:52]  Chili Carson: OK…are we ready to move along?

[13:52]  Zeus Zetkin: yes please 🙂

[13:52]  Ashcroft Burnham: The CDS is to Neufreistadt what the USA is to New York 🙂

[13:53]  Chili Carson: To recap, what we have…

[13:53]  Chili Carson: We have a blog and a wiki

[13:53]  Rudy Ruml: Oh Ash, stick to Britain.

[13:53]  Chili Carson: We have an application and application process to post on the wiki

[13:53]  Chili Carson: We have a code of conduct

[13:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, some guidelines for a code of conduct, anyway.

[13:53]  Ashcroft Burnham: I thought that more people would be familiar with US metaphors…

[13:53]  Chili Carson: that I think now needs a bit of modification based upon today’s discussion

[13:54]  Chili Carson: We will have some new logos coming along soon

[13:54]  Chili Carson: Let’s talk about the next round of projects

[13:54]  Chili Carson: A budget?

[13:54]  Thor Eldrich: Ahh….sounds like it’s time to talk Operations. 🙂

[13:54]  Chili Carson: Launch plan?

[13:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes 🙂

[13:55]  Chili Carson: Who can work on the budget with me?

[13:55]  Zeus Zetkin: Mua. 🙂

[13:55]  Chili Carson: Yay, Zeus!

[13:55]  Hunter Glass: 🙂

[13:55]  Zeus Zetkin: hehe

[13:55]  Chili Carson: Lou — I believe you have some thoughts as to what we should tackle next…?

[13:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn listens

[13:56]  Lou Tones: I think some clear, straightforward informational pieces on the mission and intent of SL CoC would be valuable

[13:57]  Chili Carson: yes

[13:57]  Chili Carson: Who can work on those?

[13:57]  Thor Eldrich: I can certainly assist with that

[13:57]  Chili Carson: Great, Thor

[13:57]  Lou Tones: I’d be happy to collaborate

[13:57]  Chili Carson: Thank you, Lou

[13:58]  Lou Tones: yw

[13:58]  Thor Eldrich: We have an incubation group site up. Any object to me setting up a presentational site as well?

[13:58]  Thor Eldrich: for the general public

[13:58]  Chili Carson: Thor, that would be great!

[13:58]  Zeus Zetkin: Yes, that would be good publicity Thor.

[13:59]  Thor Eldrich: last I checked the long form of our name is still available as a domain. I’d be happy to reserve that and set up a site if no one objects.

[13:59]  Rudy Ruml: Great.

[13:59]  Thor Eldrich: I can hand over the keys to the domain and site at any time if found necessary

[13:59]  Chili Carson: Oh, as a side note, the Holly Kai Golf Club has offered their facility for Chamber “mixers”

[13:59]  Chili Carson: With the budget in hand, we will be better able to determine fee structure

[13:59]  Lou Tones: -))

[13:59]  Hunter Glass: Good ol’ Holly Kai

[13:59]  Zeus Zetkin: yay!

[14:00]  Chili Carson: What else do we have to have done before we “open the doors”?

[14:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah — I’m sorry, I need to drop off for a bit.

[14:00]  Thor Eldrich: Work out an operational agenda, I imagine.

[14:00]  Lou Tones: Official Charter?

[14:00]  Thor Eldrich: What are we actually going to do as a CoC?

[14:00]  Lou Tones: yes

[14:01]  Chili Carson: Who can work on the charter?

[14:01]  Thor Eldrich: Mixers, advertising opportunities, education series

[14:01]  Chili Carson: Yes, Thor

[14:01]  Hunter Glass: trade shows, expos

[14:01]  Chili Carson: Those too, Hunter

[14:01]  Zeus Zetkin: Lol, it won’t let you go Gwyn 🙂

[14:01]  Chili Carson: I think trade shows will be great

[14:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed…. the Grid is really very, very damaged today!

[14:02]  Thor Eldrich: Haha….I can’t believe I’m looking to do in my off hours what I’m doing on the clock! 🙂

[14:02]  Lou Tones: There is a spam attack in process

[14:02]  Thor Eldrich: you ok, Gwyn?

[14:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm

[14:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, just worried.

[14:03]  Thor Eldrich: I wouldn’t count on using your inventory items for a while

[14:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Here we are, defining a way to get businesses in SL to get a friendly hand,

[14:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *friendly

[14:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and SL doesn’t work at all 😛

[14:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*

[14:03]  Chili Carson: Yes, it is ironic

[14:03]  Thor Eldrich: makes our job a piece-o-cake, then. 😛

[14:03]  Zeus Zetkin: The problem is its becoming increasingly more regular….

[14:03]  Rudy Ruml: Whatever is going on now is one of the things to assist business with.

[14:04]  Thor Eldrich: Oh Yes! My Chamber has had a good program going this year on disaster preparedness

[14:04]  Zeus Zetkin: And unfortunately, with the influx of such high numbers of people. It’s only gonna get worse before it gets better.. I believe 🙁

[14:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, great!

[14:04]  Rudy Ruml: It could mean a loss of business, or lose of money.

[14:04]  Chili Carson: I don’t have any volunteers for roughing out the Official Charter…Lou — maybe you could elaborate on what that would include

[14:04]  Thor Eldrich: Yes….teaching folks how to cope can be a big way to get this organization off the ground

[14:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn totally agrees.

[14:07]  Thor Eldrich: someone was going to speak about working on the charter?

[14:07]  Ashcroft Burnham: Map’s still down.

[14:07]  Chili Carson: I asked Lou to elaborate

[14:07]  Gwyneth Llewelyn apologies but will not have time to do much next week except a superficial revision and adding a comment or two.

[14:08]  Chili Carson: OK, let’s leave that open for now.

[14:08]  Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, Gwyn, your big business venture thingy?

[14:08]  Chili Carson: So, here’s what we have assigned

[14:08]  Chili Carson: Budget: Chili + Zeus

[14:08]  Chili Carson: Info Pieces: Thor + Lou

[14:08]  Chili Carson: Website: Thor

[14:09]  Chili Carson: Probably enough to work on for two weeks

[14:09]  Chili Carson: How does a meeting on 10/22 sound? Same time.

[14:10]  Rudy Ruml: Same time ok here.

[14:10]  Thor Eldrich: good to me

[14:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’ll be here, unless logins are closed down 😛

[14:10]  Hunter Glass: sounds good

[14:10]  Thor Eldrich: on a tech note: there are shorter domain names available if we don’t mind using a non- .com name

[14:10]  Zeus Zetkin: I might not be in town on 10/22.

[14:11]  Rudy Ruml: Can’t you use our or net?

[14:11]  Zeus Zetkin: But you guys carry on. I’ll catch up on the blog. 🙂

[14:11]  Rudy Ruml: oorg=org.

[14:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like just slcoc 🙂

[14:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: slcoc.org

[14:11]  Rudy Ruml: Good.

[14:11]  Thor Eldrich: not .org

[14:11]  Lou Tones: Thank you, looks like a good start

[14:11]  Rudy Ruml: I like simplicity.

[14:11]  Thor Eldrich: but slcoc.info and .biz are available

[14:12]  Chili Carson: I trust your judgment, Thor

[14:12]  Rudy Ruml: .biz most appropriate.

[14:12]  Thor Eldrich: good deal…yeah, that’s what I’m thinking

[14:12]  Chili Carson: OK, anyone have anything else they want to cover today…we heave about 14 minutes according to the clock here

[14:13]  Lou Tones: should be non-profit don’t you think?

[14:13]  Chili Carson: OH, I have news on that Lou

[14:13]  Chili Carson: thanks for reminding me

[14:13]  Ashcroft Burnham: Rudy’s idea about the domain name is not a bad one 🙂

[14:13]  Chili Carson: I had a meeting with an attorney about that this week

[14:13]  Chili Carson: This attorney understands what SL is about and what we are trying to do

[14:13]  Ashcroft Burnham: Oh?

[14:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn listens!

[14:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and? 🙂

[14:14]  Chili Carson: And, basically, he said that moving to an official, legal (US), nfp entity is something we should do when we actually have to hire someone

[14:14]  Ashcroft Burnham: nfp?

[14:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah.

[14:14]  Chili Carson: and pay them…until then, he said, not necessary

[14:14]  Thor Eldrich: not for profit

[14:14]  Chili Carson: not for profit

[14:14]  Ashcroft Burnham: Ah 🙂

[14:15]  Zeus Zetkin: not for profit.

[14:15]  Ashcroft Burnham: Presumably, that only counts if you hire and pay someone in real-world money?

[14:15]  Chili Carson: I also need to follow up with Shaun Altman about his incorporation process

[14:15]  Thor Eldrich: SL money is not money, so I assume so.

[14:15]  Ashcroft Burnham: Altman? Interesting surname for SL…

[14:15]  Zeus Zetkin: hehee .lmao 🙂

[14:15]  Chili Carson: Yes, Ashcroft — we know we will run into issues when we actually have to pay someone

[14:15]  Thor Eldrich: Hehe…

[14:15]  Lou Tones: CoC should not be a business in competition with the orgs it is there to support

[14:15]  Rudy Ruml: Achieving nfp is a cumbersome and lengthy process. I went through that for one I set up years ago.

[14:16]  Chili Carson: That is advice. We can choose not to take it or consult with someone else

[14:16]  Rudy Ruml: No, we got to go that way.

[14:16]  Ashcroft Burnham: Chili: are you likely to need to pay someone in real-world money any time soon?

[14:17]  Chili Carson: no, I don’t’ think we are in any danger!!!

[14:17]  Lou Tones: there are umbrella fiduciary NFP that can handle this within 30-days

[14:17]  Ashcroft Burnham: Well, then, that is probably something a long way in the future 🙂

[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that also depends on you set up the entity, Rudy. Around here, you can get a non-for-profit entity registered in 45 minutes… 😉

[14:17]  Lou Tones: exactly

[14:17]  Lou Tones: that’s not an issue

[14:17]  Rudy Ruml: Oh, I was thinking RW.  You: no, I don’t’ think we are in any danger!!!

[14:17]  Lou Tones: there are umbrella fiduciary NFP that can handle this within 30-days

[14:17]  Ashcroft Burnham: Well, then, that is probably something a long way in the future 🙂

[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, that also depends on you set up the entity, Rudy. Around here, you can get a non-for-profit entity registered in 45 minutes… 😉

[14:17]  Lou Tones: exactly

[14:17]  Lou Tones: that’s not an issue

[14:17]  Rudy Ruml: Oh, I was thinking RW.

[14:18]  Lou Tones: RW as well

[14:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was talking about RW.

[14:18]  Rudy Ruml: ??

[14:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: Let’s do the cross purposes dance!

[14:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol no,

[14:18]  Chili Carson: you are funny today, Ash

[14:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: Why, thank you 🙂

[14:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: (I think…)

[14:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: 😉

[14:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually, a non-profit entity in most of Europe is “no big deal”

[14:19]  Rudy Ruml: ):

[14:19]  Ashcroft Burnham: But, then, of course, you’d have to employ someone from that country…

[14:19]  Zeus Zetkin: With the way the economy is running ,Gwyn. Most businesses are gonna be that by default 🙂

[14:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but there are overhead and running costs

[14:19]  Chili Carson: So, what’s the feeling of the group — consult with someone else or go with this advice?

[14:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually, a non-profit entity in most of Europe is “no big deal”

[14:19]  Rudy Ruml: ):

[14:19]  Ashcroft Burnham: But, then, of course, you’d have to employ someone from that country…

[14:19]  Zeus Zetkin: With the way the economy is running ,Gwyn. Most businesses are gonna be that by default 🙂

[14:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but there are overhead and running costs

[14:19]  Chili Carson: So, what’s the feeling of the group — consult with someone else or go with this advice?

[14:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, not necessarily. Still, I think we’re planning *way* ahead 😛

[14:19]  Lou Tones: In any case profit or non-profit

[14:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d go with your advice for now, Chili.

[14:20]  Zeus Zetkin: I mean about Europe..lol

[14:20]  Thor Eldrich: I bend to the will of the counsel on that one.

[14:20]  Rudy Ruml: Non-profit.

[14:20]  Lou Tones: agree

[14:20]  Zeus Zetkin: Let’s go with it Chili.

[14:21]  Chili Carson: Rudy, Lou — are you saying get additional advice, stick with this advice or go ahead and set up as NFP?

[14:21]  Rudy Ruml: Question: Sl is an American business. But, can a business within SL incorporate in a foreign country?

[14:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rudy, sure 😉

[14:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Think “Internet” 🙂 Rudy Ruml: So, CoC can go npf in, say, Portugal?

[14:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Theoretically…

[14:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wouldn’t recommend, though 🙂

[14:23]  Chili Carson: Hunter, Thor, Ash, what do you want to do at this point?

[14:23]  Thor Eldrich: does anyone here use a PO Box or other mail drop apart from their home address?

[14:24]  Rudy Ruml: I’m not so sure abut all this. If American were to incorporate their business in a tax haven, the IRS would have something to say about that, I’m sure.

[14:24]  Chili Carson: Thor, I have a lot of things sent to my office

[14:24]  Ashcroft Burnham doesn’t.

[14:24]  Hunter Glass: I’m going to get started on the logo

[14:24]  Thor Eldrich: Can I use that as the address for the domain?

[14:24]  Chili Carson: sure, Thor

[14:24]  Chili Carson: go to www.kawgf.com

[14:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I get some things at my office as well, although I’m changing offices 😛

[14:25]  Thor Eldrich: I’ll begin setting up the infrastructure for the Chamber website, then.

[14:25]  Thor Eldrich: And work to start getting some official content available to the world.

[14:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Rudy, hmm, SL is not a “tax haven”, the difference is basically that you have to be honest and declare things in your own country. If you don’t well, it’s on your conscience 😛

[14:25]  Chili Carson: OK, don’t have a real strong read on this…so unless anyone wants to take on the action item of seeking other counsel, we will go with the advice we have been given

[14:25]  Rudy Ruml: Thanks Gwyn.

[14:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know a few people that declare their income from SL to the US IRS …

[14:25]  Rudy Ruml: Good.

[14:25]  Thor Eldrich: Wow…..I wonder just who WILL start a tax haven virtual world. 😉

[14:26]  Thor Eldrich: Interesting idea.

[14:26]  Zeus Zetkin: that’s a great idea 😉

[14:26]  Chili Carson: Anyone have anything else before we end?

[14:26]  Rudy Ruml: No.

[14:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: >Well, unless SL hosts with HavenCo in Sealand, I’m afraid that there is no “tax heaven”. Ultimately, things like SL are bound by a jurisdiction.

[14:26]  Thor Eldrich: just be sure and don’t logout unless you want to stay out for a while

[14:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And not from me 🙂

[14:26]  Thor Eldrich: Hehe

[14:26]  Chili Carson: haha, right you are, Thor

[14:27]  Lou Tones: Thanks Chili…

[14:27]  Thor Eldrich: Oh….agenda for the next meeting?

[14:27]  Chili Carson: Thanks everyone for today…we got through a lot, made some decisions

[14:27]  Ashcroft Burnham: As for tax it’s really quite simple, isn’t it?

[14:27]  Chili Carson: Yes, next time, in two weeks, we will go over where people are with their assignments

[14:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Reviewing the new charter and approving the artwork/logos/new website?

[14:27]  Thor Eldrich: excellent

[14:27]  Chili Carson: Hopefully, logos will have been submitted

[14:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah — and budget

[14:27]  Chili Carson: Maybe a pick at the new website

[14:28]  Ashcroft Burnham: Tax is paid on converting in-world currency back to real-world currency, and that’s treated as income in whatever country the person who’s doing the converting resides.

[14:28]  Rudy Ruml: To you, right?

[14:28]  Hunter Glass: yes, do you want them by email

[14:28]  Chili Carson: And, a draft budget

[14:28]  Hunter Glass: or textures

[14:28]  Thor Eldrich: oh I’ll fill in the group as need be via the group chat if no one minds.

[14:28]  Chili Carson: Email, Hunter

[14:28]  Hunter Glass: thanks

[14:28]  Chili Carson: Yes, please fill us in on stuff as you are working on it

[14:28]  Chili Carson: Good to have seen drafts of things before we discuss

[14:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh

[14:29]  Thor Eldrich: Does everyone here have SL configured to send offline IMs to email?

[14:29]  Hunter Glass: I do

[14:29]  Chili Carson: Thanks again, everyone…and, we can talk about our launch plans in two weeks also.

[14:29]  Rudy Ruml: Yes.

[14:29]  Chili Carson: Yes, Gwyn, I do.

[14:29]  Zeus Zetkin: M e too.

[14:29]  Rudy Ruml: Cheers, and thanks Chili and all.

[14:29]  Thor Eldrich: ok…..great to see everyone again. Excellent meeting.

[14:29]  Ashcroft Burnham: When this meeting ends, will we be able to leave?

[14:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do as well, Thor. [email protected] if you wish to send me something directly,

[14:30]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and probably not, Ash — LOL

[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: Actually I’m going to hand around a bit…just to be sure. 🙂

[14:30]  Ashcroft Burnham: I can think of worse places to be stuck 🙂

[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: True

[14:30]  Zeus Zetkin: that’s a short email add Gwyn:) Gwyneth Llewelyn: and probably not, Ash — LOL

[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: Actually I’m going to hand around a bit…just to be sure. 🙂

[14:30]  Ashcroft Burnham: I can think of worse places to be stuck 🙂

[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: True

[14:30]  Zeus Zetkin: that’s a short email add Gwyn:)

[14:30]  Hunter Glass: How do you decide who is involved in this group?

[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: haha…thanks for reminding me. I need to secure my own SL name domain as well. 😉

[14:31]  Lou Tones: Thanks everyone, take care

[14:31]  Chili Carson: Basically, Hunter, it’s been people who have stepped up and asked to be involved

[14:31]  Chili Carson: And, now we are at the point where we have a good sized-group who are pretty active

[14:31]  Hunter Glass: So, you encourage more involvement correct?

[14:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe. “Willingness to serve”, Hunter 🙂

[14:32]  Chili Carson: Yes, love involvement

[14:32]  Rudy Ruml: Well, now, I’m going to give leaving a try. Be good, people.

[14:32]  Thor Eldrich: Have a good one, Rudy.

[14:33]  Chili Carson: Best work is done with collaboration — sharing ideas, viewpoints

[14:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Goo luck, Rudy 🙂

[14:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *good

[14:33]  Lou Tones: thanks again Chili

[14:33]  Hunter Glass: I would like to request three ppl be added to the group who are very active in the community

[14:33]  Chili Carson: OK, good people, I will see you in two weeks if not before. My pleasure to host

[14:33]  Chili Carson: Sure, Hunter — who?

[14:33]  Hunter Glass: Deeeep witte

[14:34]  Hunter Glass: Dalian hansen and Ute hicks

[14:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Ute Hicks is someone I know as well 🙂

[14:34]  Chili Carson: I will do that and bring them up to speed

[14:34]  Hunter Glass: all RL professionals

[14:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, I’d like to have her on the team.

[14:35]  Thor Eldrich: Something to keep in mind: it would make it difficult to consider them for the Board of Trustees.

[14:35]  Hunter Glass: Yes, Ute is a joy to work with, always beaming with bright ideas

[14:35]  Thor Eldrich: If such consideration was being made

[14:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: She is indeed, Hunter 🙂

[14:35]  Thor Eldrich: Otherwise, more the merrier! 🙂

[14:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And good point, Thor.

[14:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At some point, if we get a regular 15-20 people team,

[14:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: we’d start to get a split between “board” and a “general assembly” of members.

[14:36]  Chili Carson: Yes, Gwyn…and we are starting to get some traction

[14:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I guess so, Chili, so far, I’m optimist about this 🙂

[14:37]  Zeus Zetkin: Has, anybody ever heard of the Virtual Chamber of Commerce?

[14:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW Chili… before you leave… you have been in touch with some other groups doing the same,

[14:37]  Chili Carson: yes, it’s going well, getting lots of good feedback within the group

[14:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: how is their feedback so far?

[14:37]  Chili Carson: Well, the Seller’s Guild is pretty disorganized…from what I can see

[14:37]  Zeus Zetkin: ~forgive the awful punctuation!!~

[14:37]  Hunter Glass: oh, one thing

[14:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: The question is right now: “who is in charge”?

[14:37]  Chili Carson: Their activity is limited to IM’ing the group about perceived texture theft and grieving

[14:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm

[14:38]  Hunter Glass: I would like to suggest we get chairs where we can see the person typing

[14:38]  Chili Carson: No one seems to be really in charge.

[14:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: hahahaha

[14:38]  Hunter Glass: typing even

[14:38]  Chili Carson: Good suggestion!

[14:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hunter, I second that motion! 😀

[14:38]  Thor Eldrich: I propose it not be….me. 🙂

[14:38]  Zeus Zetkin: Just fiddle around with your cam controls.. Hunter 🙂

[14:38]  Hunter Glass: lol

[14:38]  Chili Carson: The other group that Zeus was asking about I joined and then unjoined

[14:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would have something to say about animators in SL and the way they break things for everybody, but it wouldn’t be proper of me to say so in public 🙂

[14:39]  Zeus Zetkin: i just saw a building.

[14:39]  Chili Carson: Because I got a tip from a very well-connected person in SL that it was not a good group to be associated with

[14:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why “unjoined”?

[14:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes yes

[14:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry

[14:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You *did* mention it.

[14:39]  Zeus Zetkin: Oh i see.

[14:39]  Thor Eldrich: what you didn’t join W-Hat, did you?!? 😛

[14:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chili, I don’t want to sound paternalising or condescending,

[14:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: which I usually am accused of being,

[14:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but… well… what you’re telling me,

[14:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: doesn’t surprise me *in the least*

[14:40]  Thor Eldrich: Chili, remember to save your chat history

[14:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s still part of a certain mentality in SL,

[14:40]  Thor Eldrich: I’ll do the same.

[14:40]  Chili Carson: I have been saving as we went along, Thor

[14:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: of the “let’s get together and set up something because we’re cool”

[14:41]  Chili Carson: haha

[14:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: “and let’s discuss details later”

[14:41]  Zeus Zetkin: lol

[14:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well. It is.

[14:41]  Chili Carson: something we are trying to do differently, I hope

[14:41]  Thor Eldrich: that’s what’s encouraging about this group, though

[14:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: We are, even if sometimes it seems we’re “slow”

[14:41]  Thor Eldrich: careful planning will avoid many past mistakes, I’m sure

[14:41]  Hunter Glass: yes, details first

[14:41]  Lou Tones: OK everyone thanks again and take care…Thanks Chili

[14:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope that doesn’t sound too discouraging for you guys

[14:41]  Chili Carson: Bye, Lou

[14:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I so totally agree, Thor!

[14:41]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bye bye Lou.

[14:41]  Chili Carson: no, it’s not…

[14:42]  Thor Eldrich: Have a good one, Lou

[14:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Slow, yes, but carefully thought.

[14:42]  Zeus Zetkin: Bye

[14:42]  Chili Carson: We are making progress — bye Zeus

[14:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn will be quoting Ashcroft soon 🙂

[14:42]  Hunter Glass: well, I would like to say hello to a couple ppl in the room I haven’t been introduced to yet..:-)

[14:42]  Hunter Glass: Thor and Gwyneth, nice to meet you both..:-)

[14:42]  Zeus Zetkin: I was saying bye to Lou.. Chili.:)

[14:42]  Rudy Ruml is Offline

[14:42]  Thor Eldrich: Hahaha….I just got who you are, Hunter, my apologies!

[14:43]  Chili Carson: Oh, Sorry, Zeus

[14:43]  Thor Eldrich: You as well, H

[14:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why, thank you , Hunter 🙂 Pleased to meet you as well 🙂

[14:43]  Thor Eldrich: I was wondering if someone from the mag would make an appearance

[14:43]  Hunter Glass: I have heard both of your names before, but never an opportunity to meet until now

[14:43]  Thor Eldrich: Seems right up your ally

Present: Chili Carson, Thor Eldridge, Gwyneth Llewelyn, Rudy Ruml, Ashcroft Burnham, and Zeus Zetkin
[13:10]  Chili Carson: So, what I had on the list for today was the application and app process
[13:10]  Chili Carson: The Code of Conduct
[13:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn nods
[13:10]  Ashcroft Burnham: Good for him 🙂
[13:11]  Chili Carson: And, using the PowerPoint presentation
[13:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, thank you for that, Chili 🙂
[13:11]  Chili Carson: First, Gwyn, thank you for doing just a super job on the code of conduct!
[13:11]  Rudy Ruml: Yes, that was very good.
[13:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww I just copied and pasted from around a dozen sources…
[13:11]  Chili Carson: Turning to the application and the app process
[13:12]  Chili Carson: I got some feedback that people think that disclosure of the RL name should be optional
[13:12]  Chili Carson: I open to that. What does everyone think?
[13:12]  Thor Eldrich: I don’t have anything on a code of conduct draft
[13:12]  Thor Eldrich: was it in the PPT?
[13:12]  Chili Carson: No, Thor, it is in the blog — I will email you those docs
[13:13]  Thor Eldrich: oh oh…..ok, accessing now. Thanks.
[13:13]  Chili Carson: RL name — optional or required?
[13:13]  Rudy Ruml: Optional. I don’t see the necessity to it.
[13:13]  Ashcroft Burnham: Probably optional, or else you’ll get far fewer applicants 🙂
[13:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thor: http://slcocincubator.info/index.php?title=Code_of_Ethical_Business_Conduct
[13:13]  Thor Eldrich: I imagine not yet.
[13:13]  Chili Carson: Oh, also do I have permission to post our transcript today?
[13:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I would also add “optional”
[13:14]  Rudy Ruml: Yes.
[13:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn gives permission 🙂
[13:14]  Thor Eldrich: no problem from me
[13:14]  Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, you have my permission 🙂
[13:14]  Chili Carson: OK, sounds like optional is the way to go on the RL name
[13:15]  Chili Carson: Other feedback I received said to add a section that offers new members the opportunity to offer their skills and time
[13:15]  Chili Carson: Sounds like a good idea to me
[13:15]  Thor Eldrich: As officers, though, I’d be prepared to do so sometime.
[13:15]  Thor Eldrich: Offer skills/time to the Chamber project, or in general?
[13:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn would like to interrupt and ask if someone else can join us to watch.
[13:16]  Chili Carson: sure, Gwyn
[13:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[13:16]  Chili Carson: Both, I think, Thor
[13:17]  Chili Carson: And, the third suggestion was to add a section that details actual and anticipated benefits the new members will derive
[13:17]  Chili Carson: I think that is a good idea as well.
[13:17]  Thor Eldrich: Just so YOU all know, I work for the Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce. So my POV is based on the way they do things.
[13:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that’s excellent news then, Thor!
[13:17]  Thor Eldrich: Although I’m not really speaking on their behalf. Like Chili, I’m doing this on my own.
[13:18]  Chili Carson: Yay, Thor!
[13:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: But you’ve got experience, and know-how.
[13:18]  Rudy Ruml: our POV welcome.
[13:18]  Rudy Ruml: our=your thor.
[13:18]  Thor Eldrich: Yep, and thanks.
[13:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: afk
[13:18]  Thor Eldrich: Hi Zeus
[13:18]  Chili Carson: Thor, I will get the app info over to you as well
[13:18]  Thor Eldrich: thanks
[13:19]  Chili Carson: Hi Zeus!
[13:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello Zeus 🙂
[13:19]  Rudy Ruml: Hi Zeus.
[13:19]  Zeus Zetkin: Hi, all. Sorry,
[13:19]  Zeus Zetkin: Still rezzing.
[13:19]  Chili Carson: Thor, I would appreciate your comments on the app and it’s process
[13:19]  Chili Carson: Then, I think we are ready to go with that
[13:19]  Thor Eldrich: I can say right off the bat that a member directory or other means to connect members with each other is my Chamber’s biggest asset
[13:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: As a short intro. Zeus is currently managing the Jobfinder system, to match people offering jobs and people looking for jobs in SL,
[13:19]  Chili Carson: I would agree Thor
[13:19]  Thor Eldrich: It’s a nice way to level the playing field, so to speak
[13:19]  Chili Carson: Awesome, Zeus
[13:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hello, Zeus! Long time no see…
[13:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I told him about what we’re trying to do here, and that he would be welcome to see what we’re doing.
[13:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: We last met in July, didn’t we?
[13:20]  Zeus Zetkin: Thanks, Gwyneth 🙂
[13:20]  Rudy Ruml: Glad to meet you Zeus
[13:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: (Sorry, I’m catching up…)
[13:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: Zeus – you do jobs? 😀
[13:20]  Zeus Zetkin: Hi, Ashcroft , yes its been long 🙂
[13:20]  Chili Carson: Zeus, we will be posting the transcript, do I have your permission?
[13:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: We have a few that need filling in the CDS now… 😉
[13:20]  Zeus Zetkin: Hello, Rudy.
[13:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, getting some people successfully running businesses to provide the SL CoC for some input is a good thing, I believe 🙂
[13:21]  Zeus Zetkin: Whew!
[13:21]  Thor Eldrich: such as a mentoring program…excellent!
[13:21]  Chili Carson: Sudane mentioned a suggestion regarding membership fee in her comments
[13:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes… I don’t remember exactly the scope of it… but it makes sense.
[13:22]  Chili Carson: I had suggested an application fee of US$25…how do people feel about that?
[13:22]  Rudy Ruml: That seems low enough to me.
[13:22]  Thor Eldrich: Well…what are the anticipated costs of running the organization?
[13:22]  Chili Carson: Don’t know yet, that is the second piece of the discussion
[13:22]  Thor Eldrich: I assume we’d want to at least cover the costs
[13:22]  Chili Carson: This is just for the time it will take to process the application
[13:23]  Chili Carson: application
[13:23]  Ashcroft Burnham knows nothing about figures so keeps quiet.
[13:23]  Chili Carson: I checked on some other chambers around the company and this number came up a lot
[13:23]  Chili Carson: What does your chamber charge, Thor?
[13:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I agree — let’s see first what costs we can expect to have, and then estimate how many people we’re possibly going to attract… and then… we would be able to set up an application fee…
[13:23]  Thor Eldrich: Basic membership to the LV Chamber is $499 USD/ year
[13:24]  Chili Carson: not the membership fee, just the cost to process an application?
[13:24]  Thor Eldrich: we also have higher levels of membership that may not have a SL correlation
[13:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, ok.
[13:24]  Thor Eldrich: oh….actually, I couldn’t say
[13:24]  Thor Eldrich: between the sales efforts and process, probably 3-4 hours
[13:24]  Chili Carson: I agree, for the actual membership fee, we have to put together the budget first
[13:25]  Chili Carson: Onto the Code of Standards…
[13:25]  Chili Carson: Gwyn, you did a great job.
[13:25]  Thor Eldrich: I have some quick comments before we get heavy into that, if no one minds.
[13:26]  Chili Carson: sure, thor
[13:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please.
[13:27]  Thor Eldrich: My recommendation here would be to tread carefully at first. The Chamber’s ability to successfully implement a Code of Conduct is directly proportional to the residents’ level of trust/credibility in us
[13:27]  Thor Eldrich: since the Chamber is starting fresh, it doesn’t quite have that yet.
[13:27]  Thor Eldrich: I’m looking over the code now, and it works definitely.
[13:27]  Thor Eldrich: Great job, Gwyn
[13:28]  Thor Eldrich: You may get more resistance than anticipated, though, until a level of trust is established
[13:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, as said, it’s something cooked up together from several sources,
[13:28]  Ashcroft Burnham: Presumably, the idea is “Businesses who are with us are ethical because they follow the code of conduct. If they don’t, we’ll throw them out of the CoC”?
[13:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and then I also remembered that the members of the Board would need to have their own code of conduct,
[13:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … and then it meant defining a rough structure.
[13:29]  Ashcroft Burnham: If that’s the case, then we’re going to need to know how long a business has been a member of the CoC for anyone to take that system seriously.
[13:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, good point. Perhaps all members could be listed with date of application?
[13:29]  Chili Carson: I think that should be transparent to the community — yes, public record
[13:30]  Multi Gadget v1.48.4 by Timeless Prototype
[13:30]  Thor Eldrich: Yes, transparency at all levels will go a long way to establishing credibility.
[13:30]  Chili Carson: I agree
[13:31]  Ashcroft Burnham: 🙂
[13:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I actually imagined that your proposed application form somehow would be a publicly-viewed database?
[13:31]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well perhaps not all fields, but most of them anyway…
[13:31]  Chili Carson: I agree with that as well
[13:31]  Rudy Ruml: Here also.
[13:31]  Rudy Ruml: I can’t think or a reason to keep anything the CoC does confidential.
[13:31]  Ashcroft Burnham: Makes sense.
[13:32]  Zeus Zetkin: I think if we collate the right financial information about the companies listed in SL Coc. In time, it could become a very important resource for business data in SL.
[13:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That as well.
[13:32]  Chili Carson: Zeus, you are right
[13:32]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it would be much more than a simple “reference of members”
[13:33]  Thor Eldrich: How much financial information are you planning to ask of the members?
[13:33]  Zeus Zetkin: Yes, I think in time. It could be more of a directory/information service also for interested parties.
[13:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (here is also a good reason why I wanted Zeus to be here…)
[13:33]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Zeus, are you comfortable sharing your RL know-how? 😉
[13:33]  Chili Carson: You will see that the application asks for number of employees, annual sales, locations, etc.
[13:33]  Zeus Zetkin: Ty. Gwyn. You are too kind 🙂
[13:34]  Thor Eldrich: Annual sales?…Hmmmm….
[13:34]  Zeus Zetkin: Such as it is.. lol. Yes, would love to share it.
[13:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well to let you know… Zeus has some experience in auditing companies,
[13:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and he does auditing of SL companies as well.
[13:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, this could be a possible service,
[13:34]  Zeus Zetkin: I haven’t done any auditing in SL yet.
[13:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: like a “seal” of approval, an additional one — “this company is a SL CoC member and has allowed the SL CoC to audit them”
[13:34]  Zeus Zetkin: I used to intern with Deloitte in India, as part of my Chartered Accountancy course.
[13:34]  Chili Carson: How interesting, Zeus…a fellow bean counter!
[13:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, you could, though — you have the necessary know-how for that 🙂
[13:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha yes Chili 🙂
[13:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, again, I wouldn’t place that auditing as “mandatory”,
[13:35]  Zeus Zetkin: Lol, Chili. I still have to clear my final exams for CA. 🙂
[13:35]  Ashcroft Burnham: Auditing in SL? An intriguing idea.
[13:35]  Ashcroft Burnham: But who on earth would want to be an SL auditor?
[13:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but of course it would be an additional thing to get listed.
[13:35]  Chili Carson: I was approached the other day about auditing in SL
[13:35]  Thor Eldrich: Thing is, I don’t know of any Chamber – at least in the US – that dwells into a member’s finances in that way.
[13:36]  Thor Eldrich: That’s a level of intervention that is generally frowned upon, folks.
[13:36]  Chili Carson: Actually, a number of the applications I reviewed asked for that info
[13:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh Ashcroft… remember… I would imagine many would like to improve their level of trust and reputation in SL by having their books open for auditors to check, so to speak.
[13:36]  Ashcroft Burnham: But who’d do the auditing for an SL-compatible price?
[13:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really, Chili? Well… actually… I’m not so surprised!
[13:36]  Zeus Zetkin: I think the emergence of a reliable , audit mechanism ( using GAAP say) would be critical to the emergence of organized businesses in SL.
[13:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: My feelings exactly.
[13:37]  Rudy Ruml: I agree with that.
[13:37]  Chili Carson: Yes, Zeus, I think it’s going to get there…for example, I was asked if my firm would audit financial institutions here
[13:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m very pleased to hear that!
[13:37]  Chili Carson: Which gives people some assurance of the legitimacy of the enterprise due to the lack of regulatory environment
[13:37]  Chili Carson: It’s all just talk right now
[13:37]  Thor Eldrich: This is all a good idea for someone to do, but I’m not sure it’s something a Chamber of Commerce should be involved in.
[13:38]  Rudy Ruml: Yes, very important.
[13:38]  Chili Carson: Yes, Thor, back to our matters
[13:38]  Zeus Zetkin: That’s good to hear indeed , Chili. We must talk about it more later. Would love to know your views on the matter.
[13:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It’s a very good sign. People are taking everything much more seriously these days. No wonder, though, companies in SL are also more and more complex and handling larger sums of money.
[13:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes now 🙂
[13:38]  Ashcroft Burnham: Which is precisely why we need a proper legal system 🙂
[13:38]  Chili Carson: OK, to back up, the app process asks for annual sales and number of employees
[13:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn coughs and kicks Ash under the table.
[13:38]  Ashcroft Burnham: :-p
[13:39]  Chili Carson: Thor has expressed that this might be too invasive…what does everyone else think?
[13:39]  Thor Eldrich: At the very least, it might do to make that information optional
[13:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Again, I’d be for having it “optional”; but I would certainly like to give some companies willing to have their records totally public to have the opportunity to do so
[13:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sort of some “peer pressure”: “hey, I’m a SL CoC member, and I’m not afraid to say how much I earn per annum!”
[13:40]  Zeus Zetkin: I think , that to establish Any level of credibility we need to make sure that the companies are solvent and are “going concerns”.
[13:40]  Ashcroft Burnham: The more information that one gives, the more that people would trust one 🙂
[13:40]  Chili Carson: One of the reasons I wanted to gather it was because it would give us an idea as to what types of programs make sense
[13:40]  Chili Carson: By knowing how big the companies are, we can tailor the benefits better
[13:40]  Gwyneth Llewelyn nods @ Chili
[13:41]  Thor Eldrich: Well…..as a Chamber, I assume we’re acting to bolster the business climate in SL….not holding individual businesses accountable.
[13:41]  Zeus Zetkin: Thor,I understand your concerns about increasing membership. But , don’t you feel the emphasis on ‘quality’ companies will pay off in the long run?
[13:41]  Ashcroft Burnham: Doesn’t one accomplish the former by doing the latter
[13:41]  Ashcroft Burnham: ?
[13:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’d also like to understand what you mean exactly, Thor.
[13:42]  Thor Eldrich: Chambers of Commerce act as catalysts for interaction and an advocate for the business community.
[13:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would think that “accountability” — through at least compliance with a Code of Conduct — would be exactly one of the things that would raise the level of trust
[13:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah…. ok…
[13:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn scratches head
[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Thor. On one of the first meetings I had we Chili,
[13:43]  Thor Eldrich: We’re not looking to build their trust, though…that’s their job.
[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: one of the questions I asked her,
[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: was what exactly the SL CoC was going to do.
[13:43]  Thor Eldrich: The Chamber should focus on growing trust in itself
[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Promotion and advertising
[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Information (i.e. “how to create a company in SL”)
[13:43]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) Create a Code of Conduct
[13:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and establish rules for ethical business in SL.
[13:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I remember correctly — yes, sadly, I’ve lost that transcript altogether —
[13:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: the goal was to do all of the three 🙂
[13:44]  Thor Eldrich: it’s posted on the web.
[13:44]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It is, hmm? 🙂
[13:44]  Rudy Ruml: What about complaints?
[13:45]  Chili Carson: Oh, Thor, I think Gwyn is referring to a meeting we had subsequent to the Kuurian presentation
[13:45]  Thor Eldrich: Ahh…it was the Kuurian Expedition transcript I read
[13:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Yes, I was mentioning that one
[13:45]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I think both covered the same 3 issues.
[13:45]  Chili Carson: yes, they did
[13:46]  Thor Eldrich: Do we have an idea of how to enforce the Code?
[13:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: To be able to legitimately give out information on how to run a business, the organization that provides that info, should also come from a source which is trustful
[13:46]  Rudy Ruml: What about an organization to which one can complain about a business?
[13:46]  Thor Eldrich: Ahh…yes!
[13:46]  Chili Carson: hang on, let’s get through one thing at a time…
[13:46]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Rudy
[13:46]  Thor Eldrich: The businesses that my Chamber works with, member or no, we hold to a high standard of conduct.
[13:47]  Chili Carson: let’s back up to the question about the revelation of annual sales and employees….who is ok with that?
[13:47]  Thor Eldrich: However, we don’t build that too much into the fabric of membership itself.
[13:47]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I’m ok to list it, but to make it optional as well.
[13:48]  Zeus Zetkin: Aye , ( but such disclosures can’t be purely unaudited).
[13:48]  Zeus Zetkin: If we undertake to provide such numbers.
[13:48]  Rudy Ruml: Good point Zeus.
[13:48]  Ashcroft Burnham remains quiet on annual sales and employees as his expertise is law not business.
[13:48]  Thor Eldrich: Well, that’s not something you’d publish, is it?
[13:49]  Zeus Zetkin: Then it becomes our responsibility to ensure that they are accurate to the best of our knowledge.
[13:49]  Zeus Zetkin: Else, it’s best not to publish them at all.
[13:49]  Chili Carson: the original intent was to use it to see what kinds of programs we should focus on providing
[13:49]  Rudy Ruml: Yes, I agree with that.
[13:50]  Thor Eldrich: Yes, use it to tailor Chamber programs, but we need to hold to our own Code and not disclose private member information.
[13:50]  Chili Carson: It’s helpful to know that if we have mostly tiny businesses, new businesses, then there are good programs for those folks
[13:50]  Chili Carson: that aren’t so good for larger more established firms
[13:51]  Zeus Zetkin: I agree with Thor. The publication or even the collection of such information, purely depends on what role the Chamber will play.
[13:51]  Chili Carson: So, how about we collect it, it’s optional and we use it to decide what types of offerings we provide?
[13:51]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I would agree with that.
[13:51]  Thor Eldrich: Sounds good.
[13:51]  Zeus Zetkin: I think, that’s a good starting point.
[13:52]  Chili Carson: cool
[13:52]  Zeus Zetkin: We can ask for disclosures later, if there is a need.
[13:52]  Thor Eldrich: I can be clearer on why I’m proposing a “tread lightly” approach to that, but I’ll do that in the wiki.
[13:52]  Chili Carson: I agree, Zeus, once we are farther down the road
[13:52]  Thor Eldrich: I don’t want to be too verbose in a chat 🙂
[13:52]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: fair enough, Thor 🙂
[13:53]  Rudy Ruml: I have a broader question on all this.
[13:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: BTW we have a blog as well…
[13:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn waits for Rudy’s question
[13:53]  Chili Carson: yes, Rudy
[13:53]  Rudy Ruml: There is always a government lurking in the background. Are there any lab rules that bear on what we are talking about?
[13:53]  Chili Carson: lab?
[13:53]  Rudy Ruml: LL.
[13:53]  Thor Eldrich: Like House Rules….LL rules?
[13:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: None whatsoever 🙂
[13:54]  Thor Eldrich: just the TOS, I imagine.
[13:54]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, Linden Labs is less of a government and more of a worldly deity as far as SL is concerned…
[13:54]  Rudy Ruml: Whatever they might be called.
[13:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, Rudy, the ToS even states that the L$ has no value… 😉
[13:54]  Thor Eldrich: Chili, have any Lindens approached you about the project yet?
[13:54]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meaning mostly: business is totally and completely unregulated.
[13:54]  Chili Carson: One thing I need to look into is whether, when we establish the CoC as a 5013c, not for profit
[13:55]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh
[13:55]  Chili Carson: No, Thor, actually, they are aware this is going on and seem to have no questions…thus far
[13:55]  Rudy Ruml: Ah, yes, there is RW, isn’t there.
[13:55]  Thor Eldrich: Hmm….what are the expenses associated with that?
[13:55]  Chili Carson: No sure thor, but the accounting will be pro bono!
[13:55]  Thor Eldrich: 🙂
[13:55]  Chili Carson: I will talk to my US corp atty this week about it
[13:55]  Chili Carson: He may even do it pro bono for me
[13:56]  Zeus Zetkin: lol
[13:56]  Rudy Ruml: Theoretically, LL could intervene at any point about what CoC does. Right?
[13:56]  Chili Carson: Ash, have you looked over the code of conduct yet?
[13:56]  Thor Eldrich: I’d imagine not.
[13:56]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. yes, Rudy. Theoretically, they could.
[13:56]  Thor Eldrich: They’ve been pretty hands off about things like this in the past.
[13:56]  Zeus Zetkin: Theoretically ,they could kill us all Rudy 🙂
[13:56]  Thor Eldrich: Hehe….yep.
[13:56]  Chili Carson: Into the volcano!!!!
[13:57]  Ashcroft Burnham: Chili: I haven’t seen the CoC yet, I’m afraid…
[13:57]  Rudy Ruml: Yes, pull the cord out, so to say.
[13:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, we should look at their track record in the past. Like Thor said, they’re all for residents self-organizing.
[13:57]  Ashcroft Burnham: It wasn’t on the wiki last time that I looked…
[13:57]  Ashcroft Burnham: Which is a good idea 🙂
[13:57]  Ashcroft Burnham: It’s far better to let residents form their own organizations than to impose one top-down.
[13:57]  Zeus Zetkin: Can someone supply me with the url for the Coc website?
[13:57]  Chili Carson: Ok…there was a note from Gwyn in her email about needing clarification on the copyright issues
[13:57]  Zeus Zetkin: if any..
[13:57]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: http://slcocincubator.info/
[13:58]  Zeus Zetkin: Thanks , Gwyn.
[13:58]  Thor Eldrich: oh, you said there was a blog as well?
[13:58]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A blog is also at http://blog.slcocincubator.info
[13:58]  Chili Carson: Ash, when you have the opportunity, would you be able to give it a look?
[13:58]  Thor Eldrich: sweet
[13:59]  Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, yes, I’ll try to remember…
[13:59]  Chili Carson: That would be great
[13:59]  Ashcroft Burnham: You may have to remind me 🙂
[13:59]  Chili Carson: Gwyn, I thought your ideas of a General Assembly and an elected board were right on point
[13:59]  Thor Eldrich: haha…group notices, ON THE HOUR! 🙂
[13:59]  Chili Carson: hahaha
[14:00]  Chili Carson: There’s one area that I want to bring up that I am unsure about
[14:00]  Thor Eldrich: Oh yes, a Board of Trustees is necessary for oversight, definitely
[14:00]  Chili Carson: It’s a biggie
[14:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least there should be a minimalistic structure,
[14:00]  Chili Carson: It’s about the alternative dispute resolution function
[14:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: one where all members are represented,
[14:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and an executive board that runs daily operations.
[14:01]  Thor Eldrich: the key is, though….they shouldn’t be the same people
[14:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[14:01]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree 😀
[14:01]  Chili Carson: My original thought was that if there was a code of conduct violation, membership would be revoked and that would be the end of the CoC involvement
[14:01]  Rudy Ruml: The ADR is crucial, and we should put special effort into that.
[14:01]  Chili Carson: I know the community is looking for help with ADR
[14:02]  Thor Eldrich: the LV Chamber’s BoT is made up of elected member, but none of them are involved in day to day activities…purely advisory and oversight
[14:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: It definitely is…
[14:02]  Chili Carson: I don’t know how we will get off the ground initially if we have to take this on too
[14:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thor: I do agree. It should be a separate entity.
[14:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm you raise a good point 🙂
[14:02]  Rudy Ruml: The problem is the appeal that is bound to come if any businesses are kicked out or sanctioned.
[14:02]  Zeus Zetkin: Please pay no attention to the typing being done by my avi. I am not writing a loong novel :). It’s stuck.
[14:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 😀
[14:03]  Chili Carson: This is really tough, I know how needed this is
[14:03]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, just reading the proposed code now…
[14:03]  Rudy Ruml: 🙂
[14:03]  Ashcroft Burnham: Some comments.
[14:03]  Ashcroft Burnham: Firstly: “Each member will strive to maintain a spirit of harmony with their clients or customers, wherein merit alone wins their confidence.”
[14:03]  Thor Eldrich: yeah, that is a project in itself
[14:03]  Thor Eldrich: the biggest project 🙂
[14:03]  Chili Carson: I am just afraid we will never get out of the blocks if we have to set up an ADR process
[14:03]  Ashcroft Burnham: “Merit alone” – does that exclude advertising?
[14:03]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree that at the very least the SL CoC will oversee any non-conformities to the Code of Conduct, by investigating complaints.
[14:04]  Ashcroft Burnham: Surely advertising is an important factor in winning customer confidence.
[14:04]  Thor Eldrich: who will do that, though?
[14:04]  Chili Carson: I agree with Gwyn, we will need to investigate
[14:04]  Chili Carson: there will need to be a committee, Thor
[14:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would imagine the Board, but, you pointed out correctly that it might not be such a good idea.
[14:04]  Ashcroft Burnham: Secondly: “Each member should disclose to their customers and prospective customers information about the business, the goods or services available for purchase, and the transaction itself.”
[14:04]  Ashcroft Burnham: What information, exactly?
[14:04]  Rudy Ruml: Chili, I should think an ADR process would be the easiest of the things to set up.
[14:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Thor, can I ask you something else?
[14:04]  Chili Carson: but, I don’t think we should adjudicate (spelling), disputes between purchasers and sellers
[14:04]  Chili Carson: OK, Rudy, maybe I just don’t know enough about it
[14:05]  Thor Eldrich: Sure thing, Gwyn
[14:05]  Chili Carson: That means I cannot be the one to tackle putting together that part of the organization
[14:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. Several CoC’s I’ve read about,
[14:05]  Ashcroft Burnham: “Each member will be accessible and accountable to customers or clients and make every reasonable effort to act in the customers’/clients’ best interest and benefit, by being available for answering any questions, and resolving customer complaints…
[14:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: do not have “one” code of conduct,
[14:05]  Rudy Ruml: You see, we can give Ash a robe and make him the judge.
[14:05]  Ashcroft Burnham: “Acting in the customers’ best interests”…
[14:05]  Chili Carson: hahaha
[14:05]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but instead they have rough guidelines, and each member is expected to write their own codes of conducts.
[14:05]  Ashcroft Burnham: That’s a problem, since the interests of the business are inevitably to some extent at odds with the consumer.
[14:05]  Thor Eldrich: Yes, there’s a good reason for that, actually.
[14:05]  Ashcroft Burnham: What’s needed is a balance of those interests, not a declaration that the consumer should always have it her/his own way.
[14:06]  Ashcroft Burnham: After all, having everything for free would be in the best interests of the consumer
[14:06]  Ashcroft Burnham: !
[14:06]  Ashcroft Burnham: And LOL at Rudy’s comment above 😉
[14:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ash: thus, “every reasonable effort”. Say, selling things for L$0 just because it benefits the customer MORE….
[14:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
[14:06]  Thor Eldrich: In the US at least, Chambers of Commerce act on behalf of pro-business practices…
[14:06]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thor, was your comment an answer to my question? If so, I’d love to hear the reasons.
[14:06]  Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, but it’s still every reasonable effort to “act in the best interests of the consumer” rather than “to achieve a fair balance between the interests of the consumer and producer”.
[14:07]  Thor Eldrich: it’s easy to take that too far, and I’m sure the CoC is meant to not cross that line.
[14:07]  Chili Carson: I agree, Thor, we have to work out a practical solution to this
[14:07]  Ashcroft Burnham: “# Each member will conduct business with strict adherence to the laws of the state, country, or political organization where they are physically located (in RL) and in accordance with business or professional codes existent in his/her particular…
[14:07]  Thor Eldrich: But our general credibility would suffer if we singled out a business in tough times, whether it be their own doing or not.
[14:07]  Ashcroft Burnham: …”SL CoC members agree to conduct business in accordance with generally accepted business ethics and practices.”
[14:08]  Thor Eldrich: The membership would start wondering “am I next?”
[14:08]  Ashcroft Burnham: What about a reference to local laws in SL regions, too?
[14:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, good point, Ash. I left that out I think, but it’s mentioned further on…
[14:08]  Thor Eldrich: I could talk about that all day, actually, so I’ll continue in the wiki.
[14:08]  Ashcroft Burnham: Oops.. I missed clause 12. Ignore the last comment 🙂
[14:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes 🙂
[14:09]  Thor Eldrich: This might be a good time to ask…this is interesting me more and more. Would anyone mind if I petitioned to join the group officially?
[14:09]  Ashcroft Burnham: Otherwise, a good set of general ethical standards.
[14:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: A good example is “fixed prices” on display vs. haggling,
[14:09]  Ashcroft Burnham: Except, nothing is mentioned about business solvency…
[14:09]  Chili Carson: Not at all, would love to add you, Thor!
[14:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: in some communities (Goreans, for example), fixed prices are frown upon.
[14:09]  Rudy Ruml: Please do.
[14:09]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: *frowned
[14:09]  Thor Eldrich: General, yes……it gets sticky when it looks like we’re micromanaging their own businesses, though.
[14:09]  Ashcroft Burnham: Maybe there should be something mandated to the effect that businesses should conduct themselves to endeavor to remain solvent at all times, and use good business and accounting practice to do so?
[14:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent! Sounds good to me!
[14:10]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Register yourself on the Wiki, and make the change, Ash 🙂
[14:10]  Thor Eldrich: There’s a productive middle ground we could strike on that, and simply partner with an organization that already does that. 😛
[14:10]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, hold on, then..
[14:10]  Thor Eldrich: Nothing says we have to take all of this on ourselves.
[14:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok… any suggestions, Thor?
[14:11]  Zeus Zetkin: I agree with Thor 🙂
[14:11]  Chili Carson: me too
[14:11]  Thor Eldrich: The LV Chamber does have an accounting partner in face, a company called Orgil Singer
[14:11]  Zeus Zetkin: And not just because it benefits us bean counters :L)
[14:11]  Chili Carson: ha ha, Zeus
[14:11]  Zeus Zetkin: shhh 😉
[14:11]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm.. I can’t find how to register.
[14:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the accounting is sort of a membership privilege? If so, this would be a rather good argument for joining!
[14:12]  Ashcroft Burnham: There’s no registration form that I can say.
[14:12]  Thor Eldrich: It’s a good way to funnel business to a Chamber member, in fact
[14:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ash: top right corner, “Create an account or log in”
[14:12]  Rudy Ruml: I like that.
[14:12]  Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, but there’s only the login part there – no way of creating an account.
[14:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that as well. Very much so.
[14:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oops Ash — I’ll see that later 😛
[14:13]  Zeus Zetkin: As long as all the accounting is not expected to be pro bono 🙂
[14:13]  Ashcroft Burnham: 🙂
[14:13]  Zeus Zetkin: Or maybe we should use the word auditing 🙂
[14:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Zeus, but imagine, special discounts for members who have their fees in order….
[14:13]  Thor Eldrich: Hmmm….
[14:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see,this Sl CoC is competing with others doing similar things in SL 🙂
[14:13]  Zeus Zetkin: Gwyn, interesting as this sounds. I think we should keep an “arms length” approach.
[14:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … so, a package of deals when joining would be something to think about.
[14:14]  Rudy Ruml: Please, some history. Have all SL business been completely free to see and claim what they wish?
[14:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is just brainstorming at this point.
[14:14]  Zeus Zetkin: I propose , that if we have to collate financial information (audited) of the members.
[14:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rudy — yes.
[14:14]  Chili Carson: I think we need to keep it simple in the beginning
[14:14]  Rudy Ruml: see=sell
[14:14]  Thor Eldrich: Historically, that’s something that members usually work out with themselves. Those that are flying straight will naturally rise in stature with the Chamber without our intervention
[14:14]  Zeus Zetkin: We simply tell them to get it audited from reputable organization.
[14:14]  Chili Carson: I agree, Thor
[14:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[14:15]  Rudy Ruml: Since businesses have been completely free to do what they want, why should they give up some freedom to join CoC?
[14:15]  Thor Eldrich: As long as The Chamber treats all members equally other matters such as those usually work themselves out naturally.
[14:16]  Rudy Ruml: Is this enough of a selling point for CoC?
[14:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Rudy — now we come to the marketing bit! Yes, why should they join?
[14:16]  Thor Eldrich: Not to say we couldn’t promote those members that are more transparent! 😉
[14:16]  Zeus Zetkin: I think we should concentrate on the salient features of a membership with the CoC.
[14:16]  Thor Eldrich: There are ways of promoting them that don’t break the “all equal” barrier
[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope that was on your agenda, Chili, or we’ll probably hijack the meeting 🙂
[14:17]  Zeus Zetkin: Namely, a forum to interact , promote and list ones business.
[14:17]  Thor Eldrich: ack….are we diverging? Hehe
[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because I also agree that this is a fundamental question that we have to answer. What do the members get as benefits?
[14:17]  Zeus Zetkin: one’s*
[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so: promotion, advertising.
[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Establishing a validated reputation — more promotion.
[14:17]  Thor Eldrich: networking
[14:17]  Thor Eldrich: education
[14:18]  Thor Eldrich: and a unified voice to LL.
[14:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good… so we would promote meetings between members, seminars, “best business practice” courses for members
[14:18]  Rudy Ruml: Is all that sufficient?
[14:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: Being a member of the CoC gives the impression, hopefully the accurate impression, that the business in question is both trustworthy and well-administered.
[14:18]  Thor Eldrich: oh yeah!
[14:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, the “unified voice to LL”… hehe
[14:18]  Zeus Zetkin: Maybe some kind of dispute resolution mechanism?
[14:18]  Chili Carson: right, Ash
[14:18]  Zeus Zetkin: I would assume that would be one of the Biggest selling points.
[14:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: Zeus: the best dispute resolution mechanism is them joining the Confederation of Democratic Simulators as a franchulate 😉
[14:18]  Rudy Ruml: If I were selling widgets as I wish, with no controls, and no questions asked, then even what is mentioned as advantages
[14:18]  Chili Carson: I am not sure about the dispute resolution mechanism…I think we won’t get this thing launched if we take that one
[14:19]  Rudy Ruml: of Coc would not seem sufficient to me.
[14:19]  Chili Carson: on
[14:19]  Ashcroft Burnham: Chili: perhaps leave dispute resolution to us in the CDS, and let the CoC focus on education and verifying trustworthiness?
[14:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok! Then let’s get a RL example again. Thor, why do members of the LV CoC join it? 🙂
[14:19]  Thor Eldrich: Is there anyone else working on a Better Business Bureau model in SL?
[14:19]  Chili Carson: Unless someone can explain to me how to do it simply and practically….
[14:19]  Zeus Zetkin: I couldn’t agree more with you Ash. However, everyone else may be not be that easy to convince 🙂
[14:19] Ashcroft Burnham: Chili: yes: get them to join the CDS 😉
[14:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and yes, there are many projects, some ongoing, some already abandoned it…)
[14:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hehe Ash 🙂
[14:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: Zeus: that’s why we have a Public Information Officer 🙂
[14:20]  Thor Eldrich: If only we could partner with someone more along on that front, it would take some of the sweat out of it. 🙂
[14:20]  Rudy Ruml: Please correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand the operation of
[14:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: (Chili, have you read the latest edition of the SecondLife Business Magazine?)
[14:20]  Chili Carson: I would prefer going the partner route, Zeus
[14:11]  Zeus Zetkin: shhh 😉
[14:11]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm.. I can’t find how to register.
[14:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the accounting is sort of a membership privilege? If so, this would be a rather good argument for joining!
[14:12]  Ashcroft Burnham: There’s no registration form that I can say.
[14:12]  Thor Eldrich: It’s a good way to funnel business to a Chamber member, in fact
[14:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ash: top right corner, “Create an account or log in”
[14:12]  Rudy Ruml: I like that.
[14:12]  Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, but there’s only the login part there – no way of creating an account.
[14:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that as well. Very much so.
[14:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oops Ash — I’ll see that later 😛
[14:13]  Zeus Zetkin: As long as all the accounting is not expected to be pro bono 🙂
[14:13]  Ashcroft Burnham: 🙂
[14:13]  Zeus Zetkin: Or maybe we should use the word auditing 🙂
[14:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Zeus, but imagine, special discounts for members who have their fees in order….
[14:13]  Thor Eldrich: Hmmm….
[14:13]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see,this* Sl CoC is competing with others doing similar things in SL 🙂
[14:13]  Zeus Zetkin: Gwyn, interesting as this sounds. I think we should keep an “arms length” approach.
[14:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … so, a package of deals when joining would be something to think about.
[14:14]  Rudy Ruml: Please, some history. Have all SL business been completely free to see and claim what they wish?
[14:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is just brainstorming at this point.
[14:14]  Zeus Zetkin: I propose , that if we have to collate financial information (audited) of the members.
[14:14]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rudy — yes.
[14:14]  Chili Carson: I think we need to keep it simple in the beginning
[14:14]  Rudy Ruml: see=sell
[14:14]  Thor Eldrich: Historically, that’s something that members usually work out with themselves. Those that are flying straight will naturally rise in stature with the Chamber without our intervention
[14:14]  Zeus Zetkin: We simply tell them to get it audited from reputable organization.
[14:14]  Chili Carson: I agree, Thor
[14:15]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[14:15]  Rudy Ruml: Since businesses have been completely free to do what they want, why should they give up some freedom to join CoC?
[14:15]  Thor Eldrich: As long as The Chamber treats all members equally other matters such as those usually work themselves out naturally.
[14:16]  Rudy Ruml: Is this enough of a selling point for CoC?
[14:16]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Rudy — now we come to the marketing bit! Yes, why should they join?
[14:16]  Thor Eldrich: Not to say we couldn’t promote those members that are more transparent! 😉
[14:16]  Zeus Zetkin: I think we should concentrate on the salient features of a membership with the CoC.
[14:16]  Thor Eldrich: There are ways of promoting them that don’t break the “all equal” barrier
[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope that was on your agenda, Chili, or we’ll probably hijack the meeting 🙂
[14:17]  Zeus Zetkin: Namely, a forum to interact , promote and list ones business.
[14:17]  Thor Eldrich: ack….are we diverging? Hehe
[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: because I also agree that this is a fundamental question that we have to answer. What do the members get as benefits?
[14:17]  Zeus Zetkin: one’s*
[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so: promotion, advertising.
[14:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Establishing a validated reputation — more promotion.
[14:17]  Thor Eldrich: networking
[14:17]  Thor Eldrich: education
[14:18]  Thor Eldrich: and a unified voice to LL.
[14:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good… so we would promote meetings between members, seminars, “best business practice” courses for members
[14:18]  Rudy Ruml: Is all that sufficient?
[14:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: Being a member of the CoC gives the impression, hopefully the accurate impression, that the business in question is both trustworthy and well-administered.
[14:18]  Thor Eldrich: oh yeah!
[14:18]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, the “unified voice to LL”… hehe
[14:18]  Zeus Zetkin: Maybe some kind of dispute resolution mechanism?
[14:18]  Chili Carson: right, Ash
[14:18]  Zeus Zetkin: I would assume that would be one of the Biggest selling points.
[14:18]  Ashcroft Burnham: Zeus: the best dispute resolution mechanism is them joining the Confederation of Democratic Simulators as a franchulate 😉
[14:18]  Rudy Ruml: If I were selling widgets as I wish, with no controls, and no questions asked, then even what is mentioned as advantages
[14:18]  Chili Carson: I am not sure about the dispute resolution mechanism…I think we won’t get this thing launched if we take that one
[14:19]  Rudy Ruml: of Coc would not seem sufficient to me.
[14:19]  Chili Carson: on
[14:19]  Ashcroft Burnham: Chili: perhaps leave dispute resolution to us in the CDS, and let the CoC focus on education and verifying trustworthiness?
[14:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok! Then let’s get a RL example again. Thor, why do members of the LV CoC join it? 🙂
[14:19]  Thor Eldrich: Is there anyone else working on a Better Business Bureau model in SL?
[14:19]  Chili Carson: Unless someone can explain to me how to do it simply and practically….
[14:19]  Zeus Zetkin: I couldn’t agree more with you Ash. However, everyone else may be not be that easy to convince 🙂
[14:19]  Ashcroft Burnham: Chili: yes: get them to join the CDS 😉
[14:19]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and yes, there are many projects, some ongoing, some already abandoned it…)
[14:20]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hehe Ash 🙂
[14:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: Zeus: that’s why we have a Public Information Officer 🙂
[14:20]  Thor Eldrich: If only we could partner with someone more along on that front, it would take some of the sweat out of it. 🙂
[14:20]  Rudy Ruml: Please correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand the operation of
[14:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: (Chili, have you read the latest edition of the SecondLife Business Magazine?)
[14:20]  Chili Carson: I would prefer going the partner route
[14:20]  Chili Carson: yes, Ash, I read it
[14:20]  Ashcroft Burnham: Including the article about our law? 🙂
[14:20]  Rudy Ruml: RW COC’s a major advantage is with governments. Lobbying, for one. Interceding for another.
[14:21]  Chili Carson: yes
[14:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Rudy, However, in SL, hmm
[14:21]  Thor Eldrich: Gwyn, I’ll answer your question as soon as this thought is done. 🙂
[14:21]  Rudy Ruml: Can we do an initial survey;
[14:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: if we are serious about it… the more “strong” we are (in the sense: more members), the more likely LL will publicly ignore us 😛
[14:21]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: That’s how these guys at LL think, unfortunately. “Favoritism”.
[14:21]  Rudy Ruml: Q: Would you join a Coc if…?
[14:22]  Thor Eldrich: Ahh….ok, why companies join the LV Chamber:
[14:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … you could get listed at LL’s website 😉
[14:22]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, please, Thor. So, lobbying with the government was one.
[14:23]  Zeus Zetkin: I think its best to assume that initially LL will just ignore us. 🙂
[14:23]  Thor Eldrich: Actually, yeah, I listed them before: Networking, Promotion, Advocacy.
[14:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So far, they haven’t, but that’s slightly besides the point, Zeus. They’re watching us with interest.
[14:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[14:23]  Thor Eldrich: there’s more to it than that, of course, but those are the buggies
[14:23]  Thor Eldrich: biggies
[14:23]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: So now let’s see those RL advantages,
[14:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: why are they “insufficient” in SL?
[14:24]  Rudy Ruml: Because LL is not a problem to businesses here yet.
[14:24]  Chili Carson: Because we have no regulatory environment
[14:24]  Thor Eldrich: http://www.lvchamber.com/chamber
[14:24]  Zeus Zetkin: Lol, well put Rudy 🙂
[14:24]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.Good…
[14:25]  Thor Eldrich: My Chamber’s website is pretty verbose on this issue, as you’d imagine 🙂
[14:25]  Thor Eldrich: Btw, it’s (I think) the 3rd largest Chamber in the US
[14:25]  Thor Eldrich: We have almost 7000 members
[14:25]  Thor Eldrich: 80% of which have 25 or fewer employees
[14:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so we would definitely need to do a thorough research on your site…
[14:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: … I wonder how I missed the one from Las Vegas 😛
[14:26]  Thor Eldrich: Hehe….everyone thinks we’re a tool of the casino industry.
[14:26]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, I must admit that I didn’t restrict myself to US CoCs
[14:27]  Thor Eldrich: Couldn’t be further from the truth! 🙂
[14:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, living almost next door to a Casino, I’m used to it 😉 … anyway…
[14:27]  Thor Eldrich: Ahh, yes my knowledge of non-US organizations of this kind is sadly lacking
[14:27]  Zeus Zetkin: I hear SL being compared with the 17th,18th,ealry 19th century laissez faire business environments.
[14:27]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: One question I had, Thor, was that it seems to be regular practice in the US CoCs,
[14:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: to have the CoC establish “guidelines” for a Code of Conduct,
[14:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: but individual members would always write their own.
[14:28]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is that the case with the LV CoC?
[14:28]  Thor Eldrich: The biggest rule we have in that area is this:
[14:28]  Thor Eldrich: and it’s very ironic
[14:28]  Thor Eldrich: We don’t admit adult entertainment companies to join
[14:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: 🙂
[14:29]  Ashcroft Burnham: That’s rather immature and prudish.
[14:29]  Thor Eldrich: It blew me away when they told me that
[14:29]  Rudy Ruml: Ha. that would exclude half the businesses here?
[14:29]  Chili Carson: sure would!
[14:29]  Rudy Ruml: 🙂
[14:29]  Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[14:29]  Thor Eldrich: So you’ll also find a Sin City Chamber of Commerce here 😛
[14:29]  Thor Eldrich: Well now, there’s an interesting question though….
[14:30]  Rudy Ruml: Well, I hope not to see such restrictions in CoC.
[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: SL business are much broader in convention than even Vegas
[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: I guess that’s why I cringe a bit when CoC’s are brought up
[14:30]  Zeus Zetkin: Can I bring up a fundamental question?
[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: it reminds me of our own strange conditions
[14:30]  Thor Eldrich: go for it
[14:30]  Chili Carson: Sure, Zeus
[14:31]  Zeus Zetkin: It seems to me we are asking why people should join the CoC .
[14:31]  Zeus Zetkin: I think the question is best answered if we look at SL more as a space colony.
[14:31]  Thor Eldrich: haha….an apt analogy 😛
[14:32]  Zeus Zetkin: Or a prehistoric tribe…..
[14:32]  Zeus Zetkin: I happen to believe that’s not an accurate description at all. Because even in those times a government did exist. With a criminal law system, even though civil laws were in the nascent stages.
[14:32]  Zeus Zetkin: This was in reference to the 17th , 18th century line..:)
[14:32]  Chili Carson: I have to interrupt for a sec —
[14:32]  Zeus Zetkin: Here there is no .. govt.
[14:32]  Zeus Zetkin: Pls.
[14:32]  Chili Carson: I have to go — Yom Kippur is starting soon
[14:32]  Rudy Ruml: Not right Chili.
[14:32]  Rudy Ruml: LL is a government–a dictatorship.
[14:32]  Chili Carson: For me it is
[14:33]  Chili Carson: Anyway, can we reconvene next Sunday?
[14:33]  Thor Eldrich: certainly
[14:33]  Rudy Ruml: At this time?
[14:33]  Chili Carson: Yes, this time
[14:33]  Rudy Ruml: OK by me.
[14:33]  Zeus Zetkin: LL is more like Gods , than governments.. as Ash was saying 🙂
[14:33]  Zeus Zetkin: Sure.
[14:33]  Thor Eldrich: I’ll dig in to the wiki and blog as well
[14:34]  Chili Carson: Thanks!
[14:34]  Rudy Ruml: A government has a monopoly of force, Such as does LL.
[14:34]  Zeus Zetkin: Rudy, Gods to have force.
[14:34]  Rudy Ruml: Yes.
[14:34]  Zeus Zetkin: Absolute force.. power 🙂
[14:34]  Rudy Ruml: Ah, yes.
[14:34]  Zeus Zetkin: Just like LL.
[14:34]  Rudy Ruml: You got it.
[14:35]  Thor Eldrich: Chili, should we let you go, kiddo?
[14:35]  Rudy Ruml: As Gwyn said, they could kill us all tomorrow.
[14:35]  Rudy Ruml: Even today.
[14:35]  Ashcroft Burnham: Have a good Yom Kippur 🙂
[14:35]  Chili Carson: Yes, I need to start starving…Thanks, Ash
[14:35]  Ashcroft Burnham: Hmm, let’s hope that they don’t.
[14:35]  Ashcroft Burnham: That’d be democide on a rather grand scale 😉
[14:35]  Thor Eldrich: be sure to save your chat history first
[14:35]  Zeus Zetkin: Happy Yom Kippur?
[14:36]  Zeus Zetkin: hehe
[14:36]  Ashcroft Burnham: 🙂
[14:36]  Zeus Zetkin: So, are we hanging around or dispersing for the day?
[14:36]  Thor Eldrich: I’m kind of surprise not to see Prok here today
[14:36]  Thor Eldrich: I was looking forward to meeting her
[14:37]  Thor Eldrich: Chili, do you mind if we hang out a bit here?
[14:37]  Rudy Ruml: I have to go. Good meeting Chili. Much clarified.
[14:37]  Thor Eldrich: For anyone that wants to, that is.
[14:37]  Rudy Ruml: Thanks all. Cheers.
[14:37]  Rudy Ruml is Offline
[14:37]  Thor Eldrich: Have a great one Rudy
[14:37]  Ashcroft Burnham: An interesting meeting 🙂
[14:38]  Zeus Zetkin: I will has to leave soon , as well its 3 am here.
[14:38]  Thor Eldrich: Definitely. It’s in good hands, I’m certain of it.
[14:38]  Zeus Zetkin: On a Sunday night.. Gf calls..lol
[14:38]  Zeus Zetkin: have*
[14:38]  Chili Carson: Of course, you guys are welcome to hang out as long as you like
[14:38]  Gwyneth Llewelyn apologies for being away for a bit
[14:39]  Thor Eldrich: Id’ be happy to stay for a bit and answer any other questions you may have about what I do.

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